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July 19, 1995 - Part 2
(11:20:48) Mr. HUBBELL. I believe the best way to protect all privileges is to keep the documents in the possession of the lawyer or the client. Senator HATCH. That's right. Now, a person, that is, the client, can always choose to waive the attorney-client privilege, can't the client? Mr. HUBBELL. That is correct. The privilege is the client's. Senator HATCH. So, assuming the attorney-client privilege protected some of the President's documents, if the President wanted to open the documents to the public, he could always waive the privilege if he wanted, couldn't he? Mr. HUBBELL. If that is the only privilege that attaches. I don't - we're talking in hypotheticals, and I don't think we're talking about national security documents. Senator HATCH. No. We're talking about these documents. We're talking about Mr. HUBBELL. I don't know what these documents are Senator HATCH. I'm talking about Whitewater documents. Let's limit it to those. But he could waive the privilege if he wanted to? Mr. HUBBELL. The President can waive the privilege. Senator HATCH. Let me just say this. Given your familiarity with the public and private law practice that you've had, and you've had extensive experience, you're well acquainted with the fact that Gov 106 ernment lawyers are generally prevented from doing legal work for private persons, aren't they'? Mr. HUBBELL. My familiarity is with the Justice Department. Senator HATCH. But you wouldn't allow anyone at the Justice Department- when you were Deputy, you wouldn't allow them to have a private practice on the side while fully employed by the Government, would you? Mr. HUBBELL. No, except to the extent of pro bono work, Senator. We did try to adopt rules that would allow Justice Department lawyers to do work pro bono. Senator HATCH. Those rules exist so Federal officials will not be working on private matters at the expense of the Federal treasury; right? Mr. HUBBELL. Yes, Senator. Senator HATCH. Don't they exist to prevent conflicts of interest, that may arise when the official's public duties and private interests conflict? Mr. HUBBELL. There are conflicts and problems, if you were to do Senator HATCH. Such as one of the things we're trying to avoid by not having Government lawyers working for private citizens. Mr. HUBBELL. That's something that we consider in adopting the pro bono rules. Senator HATCH. In your tenure. in the Department of Justice, wouldn't you have found it troubling that a Government lawyer also represented somebody else on a purely private matter? Mr. HUBBELL. It would depend on what it was, Senator. I'm not trying to split hairs Senator HATCH. Pro bono you've mentioned. That's the only case, though, isn't it? Mr. HUBBELL. If you had a good friend who needed a will drawn, I don't think I'd get my nose out of joint. But if he was engaged in an extensive law practice, I probably would. Senator HATCH. Here we have work on the President's private tax returns. Wouldn't that be purely a private matter, in your opinion? Mr. HUBBELL. Senator, in my opinion the President is a unique individual. He has personal matters, but they are so wrapped up into his public duties and public disclosures that I think the President has a unique position. So I don't necessarily agree with you. I have never done any research on it. We could probably ask our good friend Walter Dellinger if he has, and he probably has one way or the other. Senator HATCH. He probably has. Mr. HUBBELL, I have never done any work on it, but I'd certainly ask Walter. Senator HATCH. Sure. Let me say this; In fact, the Rose Law Firm originally had documents relating to the President's taxes; right? The Rose Law Firm did his taxes? Mr. HUBBELL. I don't believe the Rose Firm did his tax work, Senator. Senator HATCH. Did they have any documents pertaining to his taxes? Mr. HUBBELL. The Rose Firm? 107 Senator HATCH. Yes. Mr. HUBBELL. If they did, it was after I left the firm. Senator HATCH- You were involved in preparing the transfer of certain documents to the White House, weren't you? Mr. HUBBELL. Certain documents to the Senator HATCH. Lot me make it clear. Some of those files were labeled Whitewater and Madison; isn't that correct, that you transferred them to the White House? Mr. HUBBELL. I never delivered any Whitewater or Madison files to the White House, Senator. Senator HATCH. But you prepared the transfer and they were transferred to the White House? Mr. HUBBELL. They were transferred to David Kendall. Senator HATCH. You didn't prepare the transfer or help to prepare a transfer of Whitewater and Madison files to the White House? Mr. HUBBELL. To the White House, no, Senator. Senator HATCH. I guess my time--can I just follow with one more question? The CHAIRMAN. Go ahead.
St. Peter's Ablaze In Rites
Rolling a little dull in contrast and imagery Twenty-five thousand flaming torches light up the famous basilica as Sir Thomas More and Bishop John Fisher become the first English Saints to be canonized since the reformation.
Air Chiefs Fly To National Plane
Jumpy a little over-exposed imagery Noted fliers and airplane manufacturers arrive in their own 'sky taxis' to discuss the latest developments in aviation. Greater speeds and higher altitudes for commercial machines occupy the group's attention.
3,000 Swanky Dogs Compete
Rolling, jumpy a little dull on imagery The Morris and Essex kennel club benches a record number of pooches at its most spectacular show. Honors go to the best in each class after careful scrutiny by a board of eminent judges. CUs Great Dane, CUs Newfoundland, CUs Bulldog, West Highland White Terrier, Brussels Griffon and the last doggy with the sweet face, Wire Fox Terrier, various breeds.
Spectacular Gas Warefare Battle Staged For Duce
Jumpy a little over-exposed imagery Flame-throwers and poison-gas bombs put the countryside under a pall of deadly fumes in an extremely realistic rehearsal designed to teach Romans how to protect themselves in time of war.
July 19, 1995 - Part 2
(11:25:18) Senator HATCH. In your deposition-I can't see what page---on page 13 of your deposition, it said "after the election"-the question was: Question: How did you become more familiar after the election? Answer: After the election, one of the things I assisted the transition in doing would he- was to assemble records that had been compiled during the campaign and make decisisons about what should happen to those and some of those files that had been at the campaign, and I determined whether they should go. So I was aware that there were files that were labeled Madison, Whitewater, things of that sort, that were in what we referred to as the Betsey files, Betsey Wright's files. Question: Where did they go? Answer: They ended up in my house. Question: Of all the files you're aware of? Answer: All the files I'm aware of, yes, of the Betsey files. Question: I take it they're not at your house today? Answer: No, they are not. Question: Where did they go after your house? Answer: They came to Washington and ultimately were delivered to David Kendall, the attorney for Mr. and Mrs. Clinton. Did they go to the White House or did they go Mr. HUBBELL. No, they never were in the White House, Senator. They were here in my house in Washington and, ultimately, almost all of the files I delivered to David Kendall. There were some small files that I delivered to another lawyer for the President. Senator HATCH. I see. Mr. HUBBELL. But none of them were delivered to the White House. Senator HATCH. Just two more answers. You say "I don't believe any of those files"-the question was: Question: What I'm trying to do, and I'm not trying to be clever, probably couldn't be at all. I'm trying to figure out if you ever became aware that any part of those assembled files were kept in the possession of Mr. Foster in his White House office? Answer: I don't believe any of those files were kept in his office. I was aware that Mr. Foster was working on some tax returns related to Whitewater, and I suspected that there were files, but I don't know. So you just suspected there were files that were transferred? 108 Mr. HUBBELL. What I'm trying to say, Senator, is that the files that I had in my possession that were the campaign files never made their way to the White House. I was, as I said in my deposition, aware that Vince worked on Whitewater tax return issues, and I assumed that. he had his own file, but they were not any of the campaign files. I never gave Vince any file that was from the campaign, and they never went to the White House. They all ended'. up in the hands of private counsel. Senator HATCH. I think my time is up. The CHAIRMAN. Senator Sarbanes. Senator SARBANES. Senator Moseley-Braun. OPENING COMMENTS OF SENATOR CAROL MOSELEY-BRAUN Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I'd like to take the witness back to July 20, 1993, and to talk about the circumstances in which you received information regarding Vince Foster's death. How were you informed of Vince Foster's passing? Mr. HUBBELL. Senator, I was beeped at a restaurant. I went to a public phone, and I was told that Vince had been found dead and that it was an apparent suicide. I immediately left the restaurant and tried to get to a private phone so I could have a more substantive conversation. Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. You were told that by George Stephanopoulos? Mr, HUBBELL. That's correct. Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. Was there any suggestion in that discussion that it was other than a suicide, that there may have been foul play involved? Mr. HUBBELL. No. I said that can't be true. I said are you sure it's Vince? Are you sure it isn't his son? He said, Webb, it was Vince and it's an apparent suicide. Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. What did you do then, after you made the phone call? Mr. HUBBELL. As I said, I went home, but I was locked out of my own house so I went to a neighbor's and called George back. Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. Then, according to your deposition, you got together with and advised two of Vince Foster's sisters? Mr. HUBBELL. Yes. George said, Webb, the Park Police and David Watkins are on their way to Lisa's house. You need to get there as soon as possible. I asked George had anybody talked to Sheila? He said no, you need to tell them, and so Sheila's house is cattycornered from mine, and I walked across the street. As it turned out, Sharon, his other sister, was visiting Sheila from Little Rock I mean, Sharon, being from Little Rock, had come up that day, and so I told them both at Sheila's house. I told them what I had been told, and we all went to Lisa Foster's house afterwards. Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. You arrived at Mrs. Foster's-Lisa Foster's house, according to your deposition, about the same time that the Park Police did? Mr. HUBBELL. That's correct. Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. Did you relate to her the news of her husband's death or did the Park Police? 109 Mr. HUBBELL. I asked to, but the Park Police said that was their job, and they had to do it. Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. Were you there when they did it? Mr. HUBBELL. I was outside the door, but I was right behind them. Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. Did the Park Police advise her-in advising her of her husband's death, did they advise her it was a Suicide or homicide? Do you have any recollection of that conversation?
Working Woman
Talent is cleared, unless otherwise noted. Crowd shots are not cleared. Various shots of working business woman working on computers, talking on cell phone in NYC. Note that the woman has been cleared.
ON PREVIEW CASSETTE #98048 b/w Inauguration of President Truman
World War I plane (dog fight). WWI plane in flight. WWI plane flying in combat. (note that this is in color, so it's certainly not a real WWI dogfight)
ON PREVIEW CASSETTE 95519 Crowds wave at soldiers
Battle of Germany
Newspaper, photo, headline
Preview cassette 218908 "Royal Wedding" (Elizabeth and Phillip)
Yalta conference
Yalta conference
July 19, 1995 - Part 2
(11:30:45) Mr. HUBBELL. Senator, I only remembered Lisa's reaction. I don't think I could have-I didn't hear them-I heard Lisa's reaction. Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. I'm going to ask you, and I know this is touchy because this is a very sensitive area and a troubling personal area, but what was her reaction, that you recollect? Mr. HUBBE LL. She screamed and sat down on the stairs. Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. You talked with her thereafter? Mr. HUBBELL. Yes, I think Eileen-we all went in. Eileen took her back upstairs and, then, a few minutes later, Eileen came down and said Lisa needs you to be with her. Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. When you went upstairs to talk with her, did you touch on anything having to do with Vince Foster's papers or effects or the like? Mr. HUBBELL. Initially, we looked for a gun at some point. I mean, I'm sure we just sat and held each other for a while, but at some point we looked for a gun, then, later on, we looked for a note. Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. So your overarching concern that night was your concern for your grieving friends as opposed to having anything to do with the official responsibilities that Vince Foster might have had? Mr. HUBBELL. Correct. I think we were in shock. I had concerns that people were going to presume it was a suicide before we knew what happened, but pretty quickly everybody was saying it was a suicide. It was on the news. My concerns were related to the Fosters' religion and what effect that would have on them, but we didn't think about official business. Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. These were close friends of yours? Mr. HUBBELL. Very close friends. Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. How long had you known the Fosters? Mr. HUBBELL. I knew Vince from the day I joined the Rose Firm in 1973, over 22 years. I worked closely with him. Lisa and Susie became close friends. We would travel together. We would play together, we grieved together. This is as close as you get, Senator. Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. To switch gears just a little bit from that night, this is not so much as to July 20, but in terms of your Official responsibilities as Associate Attorney General, you supervised the Civil Division and, from your deposition, I'd like to just read this into the record, You supervised the Civil, Antitrust, Tax, Civil Rights and Environmental Divisions, You also supervised immigration Office of Legal Counsel, the Office of Information and Privacy, Community Relations Service, office of U.S. Trustees, Office of Legislative Affairs, Public Affairs, Policy and Development, 110 Now, that description suggests that you did not have direct supervisory authority from the Department of Justice over the White House Counsel's Office; is that correct? Mr. HUBBELL. Oh, no, no. The White House Counsel's Office is part of the President's Office and I have no authority over the White House Counsel. Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. But you had interactions with the White House Counsel's Office because of the informal relationship and previous personal friendship with Vince Foster? Mr. HUBBELL. That's correct, and there was a lot of business between White House Counsel and the Justice Department. Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. Now, you've testified that you couldn't sleep that night and you made a call that next morning to see if the office had been secured. Did you feel that you had any official responsibility for securing the office of Vince Foster? Mr. HUBBELL. No. Senator, I didn't mean to ever imply that anything I said that night or the next day had anything to do with any official capacity. I was calling as a friend to make sure something like the cleaning people didn't happen. I know, specifically when we met with the Park Police that morning, I advised everyone that I was there as a friend and representative of the family and was not there in any official capacity from the Justice Department. Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. When you later had a discussion that day with Mr. Nussbaum, you later had that conversation regarding what should happen in terms of the investigation based on your re-' lationship as a friend, and not in any official capacity; is that correct? Mr. HUBBELL. That is correct. Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. So what role, if any, did you assume again? I just want to bring this home, As Associate Attorney General, you did not assume
Two-Headed Calf Alive And Well Amazes Scientists
Rolling, dull in contrast and imagery One of twins, a calf has a second head grotesquely growing out of the side of its normal cranium. The beast has four eyes and four nostrils that function in unison, and a queer trio of horns.
Bird-Woman Hops Over Ocean For New Air Record
Rolling, light in contrast and imagery Bird-Woman Hops Over Ocean For New Air Record Exclusive pictures show the landing, in a dangerous bog, made by Mrs. Beryl Markham at the end of the blonde English mother's record-breaking flight westward across the Atlantic from Great Britain. Thousands give the bird-woman a tumultuous greeting as she reaches gotham. In a dramatic newsreel interview, the flier shows evidence of the strain her amazing escape from death had upon her. A police escort whisks her to her New York hotel where she tells her plans for the immediate future.
Pres. Roosevelt & Gov. Landon At Drought Parley
Rolling, light in contrast and imagery President Roosevelt meets Governor Landon and the executives of other drought-stricken states in a conference to determine measures to relieve the sufferings of the affected populations.
July 19, 1995 - Part 2
(11:35:39) Mr. HUBBELL. No, and Phil, on purpose, kept me out of it. Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. Which gets to the next question. Senator Shelby, in his questioning, talked about an agreement between Mr. Heymann and Mr. Nussbaum. Were you aware of any such agreement? Mr. HUBBELL. I was only aware when I returned and Phil had said they had reached an agreement and that had changed. Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. I'm sorry, and then what? Mr. HUBBELL. Then it had changed when they got there. But I had nothing to do with the agreement, don't know what the agreement was. Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. That was going to be my next question. Were you advised of what the agreement was and what the scope of it was? Mr. HUBBELL, Phil may have said in general terms what he thought was going to happen or what the agreement was, but I really don't recall. I know Phil would. Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. The Park Police had advised you and others that this was an apparent suicide, Is it your impression that everyone who was involved with this matter at the outset had concurred or believed that this was a suicide? III Mr. HUBBELL. Yes, I believe the Park Policeman told me that that night, and when we met with the Park Police the next morning, they made it very clear that it was a suicide. Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. Was there any basis for questioning the Park Police's description of a suicide? Mr. HUBBELL. No. I asked several questions that morning because I still couldn't believe it. If you knew Vince Foster, it was hard to believe, but after they went through what they discovered they said, Mr. Hubbell, this was a suicide, there's no doubt in our mind. Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. In your opinion, would the events following July 20, would those events have been different if it had been a homicide or if the Park Police had advised that it was a homicide instead of a suicide involved? Mr. HUBBELL. I would have to believe they would be. I don't know exactly what the difference would be. I guess it depends on the circumstances, but I suspect that it would be. Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. In any event, with regard to the handling of information in Mr. Foster's office, that would not have been in the normal course of a suicide investigation. You had no legal responsibility, no ethical responsibility to get involved with trying to secure that off-ice or anything in it based on what the Park Police had told you? Mr. HUBBELL. That's correct, Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. So your interest in securing the office, the conversation the next day, was just based on an abundance of caution and because of your friendship? Mr. HUBBELL. That's correct. Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. I have no further questions. Thank you. The CHAIRMAN. Has the Senator completed her inquiry? Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. I have no further questions. Thank you. The CHAIRMAN, Senator Bennett. OPENING COMMENTS OF SENATOR ROBERT F. BENNETT Senator BENNETT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Hubbell, I've tried to take careful notes of some of the things you've said. Let me review them so that we can be sure I'm not misrepresenting your position and I'm going to ask you some questions that I think you do know the answer to, compared to those that have tried to get you to get into somebody else's mind. I have written down you made the point that the files of the White House Counsel were in Vince Foster's office. In effect, they were Bernie Nussbaum's files every bit as much as they were Vince Foster's files. Do I have that right? Mr. HUBBELL. I believe that is correct. I believe they belong to the White House Counsel. Senator BENNETT. You made the comment that in an investigation of this matter, that it's perfectly appropriate that someone with the stature of the White House Counsel should be the one to go in the office and investigate that. Do I have that right? Mr. HUBBELL. I did say that. 112 Senator BENNETT. This was not your comment, but it's in the same vein as what the Senator from Massachusetts asked you about, whether or not the police should be allowed to "roam willynilly," his phrase, through an office and you fsaid no, you didn't think that that would be appropriate. Do I Mr. HUBBELL. I said that, yes.
Strato Hoppers Near Try
Jumpy a little blurry dull in contrast and imagery Officers who will risk their lives in the forthcoming National Geographic army ascension into the upper reaches of the stratosphere, install their huge gondola and equipment in moonlight valley from which they will take off.
July 19, 1995 - Part 2
(11:40:10) Senator BENNETT. Did I characterize that correctly? All right. Ili the background, then, of those statements, let me read to you from Mr. Nussbaum's deposition what happened that night, You've said, appropriately, you weren't there, you were, as you've indicated to Senator Moseley-Braun, with the family, but this is what happened. there that night, according to Mr. Nussbaum. Picking up on page 33 of his deposition, and I will not read everybit of it, but I believe I've got the essence of it. I decided to go to my office to call members of my staff to try to reach some people to let them know what happened before the news became widespread. I recall walking from the residence directly to my office, The door was open. As I walked into the suite, I noticed a light on in Foster's office, and I turned to walk into Foster's office, seeing the light, and I saw Maggie Williams and Patsy Thomasson. Question: What were they doing? Answer: Maggie was sitting on a sofa crying and Patsy was sitting behind Vince's desk. Question: Doing what? Answer: Looking at the top of the desk. I said, what are you doing here, and Patsy said- Maggie didn't say anything-Patsy said, I'm looking to see if he left a note. I said, that occurred to me also on the way over, which it did. Indeed, I was going to go in and look for a note. I said, well, actually, that occurred to me, too, and Patsy also said-1 said we just arrived. We're looking for a note. We just arrived. I'm looking for a note, I said, well, that occurred to me also, and I went over to stand next to her, and we looked on top of the desk, and we looked around, just sort of eyeballing the room. We opened a number of drawers in the desk. We saw nothing. There were a lot of papers on his desk and it ended. It concluded. That cursory search for the note ended, We were looking for something obvious. At least I was looking for something obvious, a letter on the desk to whom it may concern, designed to be found. We didn't see anything there. We chatted briefly about what a tragedy it was, and we got up and left together. That's Mr. Nussbaum's description of what happened that night. This is an office where there are files of the White House Counsel. Someone of the stature of the White House Counsel is someone you suggest should be the one to be searching, the police should not be allowed to roam willy-nilly through that office, yet Mr. Nussbaum shows up and it never occurs to him to even suggest there's anything wrong with Patsy Thomasson sitting behind Mr. Foster's desk looking at the papers on his desk and ultimately opening the drawers in his desk. Now, the question I have for you in that circumstance, and I think you are qualified to answer it, perhaps better than anybody, is who is Patsy Thomasson? Why would her presence be accepted by the White House Counsel as a normal matter of course in this circumstance that it would never occur to him to even ask Why she's there, other than to accept her statement she's there to look for a note, and he says I'll look with you, and together they go through the drawers of the desk of a man that, in your phrase, has the files of the White House Counsel in it? It's extraordinary to me that the White House Counsel accepted her presence in this fashion, but I don't know who she is. I don't know what her relationship to this thing is. You have the background with her in the cam- 113 paign. You had the background with her in this circumstance. Can you tell the Committee who Patsy Thomasson is? Mr. HUBBELL. I know some parts of Patsy's background. I know she worked in the campaign. I know she was the Chairman of the Arkansas Highway Commission. I know she had worked for several Senators and Governors, and I know she worked in the campaign in the transition and was an Assistant to the President of the United, States and the Chief Deputy to David Watkins, who was in charge of the building itself and getting the light bulbs changed, so to speak, Senator BENNETT. Did she have a White House pass at the time she did this? Obviously she had a White House pass. Did she have a security clearance? Mr. HUBBELL. I do not know. Somebody said she did not. I did not know that. Senator BENNETT. You said she worked in the campaign. What did she do in the campaign? Mr. HUBBELL, I think she worked for David in running the administration of the campaign, but I'm not sure. I did not have any dealings with Patsy during the campaign. I worked with others. Senator BENNETT. So I was wrong in assuming you could shed some light. The Arkansas Highway Department doesn't help a whole lot in this context. Why would she be the logical first person to be in Vince Foster's office? Can you help us at all?